Well what brought you to degrowth? Why do you see the argument against degrowth convincing or powerful? Why do haven’t you turned your back on degrowth because of the argument? If it’s just that some people have that view and you want to evangelize, I’ve got some bad news for you about changing people’s viewpoints with rhetoric. I don’t need your answers to these questions (though feel free to write them out if that helps), but they might be a good spot to start from to find something that will resonate a bit more or be more useful to you.

Anyway, I’m checking out. Cheers.

carefully composed

I don’t think this adds to the community and it seems others agree. You can blame others all you want, or you can take the hint. If you want to talk about this topic, find a better way that’s clearer and doesn’t have to go through several iterations to get your actual point across. I hope you find a way to have the discussion you want to have.

I’ll bite.

The selections you’ve included are really weak.

Most Americans think wealth is important? Yeah, because the medical system will literally let you die if you’re poor. The justice system works differently if you have money and the poor are more likely to be policed. Lots of people are dangerously close to homelessness and more are becoming so as people get priced out of housing.

Upward mobility is a sham. The best indicator of if you’ll be wealthy in the future is if your parents are. That’s due to a bunch of different factors, but being able to afford healthcare, good schools, being able to recover from mistakes and accidents, and plain old intergenerational wealth.

I don’t know what your point is about scarcity vs abundance mentality, but when pretty much every single aspect of ones life is improved by money, yeah, people want it. Making sure basic needs like healthcare and housing would go a long way towards getting people less desperate for money and exacerbating the cycle by doing whatever capital wants regardless of larger consequences just to not die.

So I don’t think you have any good points that the people in this community haven’t thought about and generally already come to a conclusion about. You’re doing the equivalent of going into a vegan community and saying “bUT aNImALs Are kIllEd farmInG THE PlAntS You eAt” and thinking it’s clever.

Anyway, here’s my down vote. It’s not mindless; it is filled with intention and consideration.

Here’s the closest thing I’ve found like that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-Pirate:_The_Story_of_Paul_Watson

Much like corpses, there’s a certain amount of excrement we’re willing to accept to swim in salty water.

What are the front row?

Neato, I didn’t know about that cherry. Good luck with your search and your garden!

Ok, but cherries and apples aren’t native; colonists introduced them. I think the pawpaw is the only native tree with edible fruit and you already listed it.

It’s not native but I remember my grandparents had a pear tree that did well and stayed relatively small in Eastern PA.

And if space is the only issue for the cherries, you could look into Espalier, training it to grow flat against a wall or fence.

The first time I ever heard of these was in the Christian Slater/John Travolta movie Broken Arrow.

Yes. And they get sharpened until they die. They go in the dishwasher because my tools serve me, not the other way around, and they are adequate for what I do.

Isn’t that still a carbon-based energy source? Aren’t we trying to move away from those?

Didn’t fracking have a lot of negative consequences for the areas it occurred in?

The capital class can’t own public goods (e.g. an educated population, a non-toxic environment, fediverse might fall into that category as well) and thus cannot seek rent or gain advantage over others that have equal access to said public goods. This means public goods are not valued by the capital class and in some cases are actively harmed in order to make way for a capital-based solution that can give advantage or be made scarce.

Gee gosh, haven’t heard that clever and witty argument before. Not even vegans are trying to be perfect, they’re trying to minimize suffering. The top comment didn’t say they’d care about field mice, they said they don’t care about sentience because they take pleasure in the products of its destruction. Not really interested in talking any more with someone that misses the point so obviously whenever on purpose or because of a lack of mental faculties. Bye.

Sentience. We got all these plant things to eat. Some of them even make things they want other beings to eat, i.e. fruit.

Some judgement here. Knowingly causing suffering to sentient beings for your pleasure non consensually is kinda squicky. At least get the cow at the end of the universe that wants you to eat it.